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Birdie Cage
(@birdie-cage)

@lonespurjake -- you make an interesting suggestion........BUT

POOH!  What category would I get to shoot in???  B Western did not become real until 2005 and Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter (the purest form of old west shooting) did not become real until about a decade ago.    🤔 

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Posted : 12/02/2020 11:21 pm
lonespurjake
(@lonespurjake)

That's my point.  To have real competition in all categories, with the amount of members we have, you would have to get rid of a bunch of categories.  Look at all the categories we have had, for let's say the last 5 years, and how many competitors other than 1 have been in some of the categories.  I don't know what the answer would be to make all the members happy, but it appears we have a problem or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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Posted : 13/02/2020 12:18 pm

I like Kenny Reds proposed rules:

  • You must be a member for your 1st shoot to qualify.

    • Pay your full yearly dues by the March match, and January counts.

  • You must declare your SFTS category at that first shoot.

    • Your category is whatever you put on your Match Application.

  • You must shoot 6 Matches in your SFTS category.

    • Your SFTS category would be 6 Matches in the same category.

  • You must beat the shooters in your category and they must be members .

  • The category must have at least two shooters.

  • They don’t necessarily have to shoot 6 matches.

    • But they must shoot at least 2 matches in that category.

  • You can not win the Silver Buckle in the same category two years in a row.

  • You can still shoot in that category and win a buckle but not the Silver.

It's apparent that this may change year-to-year if the number of matches varies and may change during a year as a match may be canceled for one reason or another.

As far as 42 categories, yikes that's a lot Lou, look at the last 3 years, we had 24 categories were actually in contention. I agree we should probably  increase the number of matches that the competitor has to shoot against someone in the category, maybe 2-3, I'm open to that. Hopefully we can vote on some changes soon.

 

TB

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Posted : 13/02/2020 12:54 pm
Lou Graham #26112
(@lou-graham)

We could skinny down the categories without leaving anybody out.  There are 3 shooting styles and 2 kinds of powder.  That's 6 categories, 12 if we have ladies in all of them.  That pares it down quite a bit.  BW shooter has to pick one way to shoot.  CC has slight disadvantage with larger caliber and extra clothes if they still choose to wear them.  Older people have to compete against younger ones.  It's not impossible.  A long, long time ago, I won CT state overall lady shooting black powder.  They said it couldn't be done, they said I was throwing away my chance to win, they said I was crazy.  They were right about that last one...…….

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Posted : 13/02/2020 7:33 pm
DustyEagle
(@dustyeagle)

For your consideration.

The attached file 'SFTS History.pdf'' shows the categories, the number of shooters in each category and the number of shooters that shot 6 or more matches for 2017, 2018 and 2019.  

Also shows the categories that had a 2016 Champion. 

Do not know how many SFTS Champions were awarded since some categories only had 1 shooter.

Older data not available from the web.

 

This shows that we average slightly over 20 SFTS Champions each year. 

Shows that the member participation is falling off.  Is this due to lack of interest, fewer members, or other reasons?

Would be interesting to see how many member we have that did not participate in SFTS.  How many total members have we had?

 

Note: the SFTS results for 2019 show 4 Silver winners that are listed as 2018 Silver winners.  Rules state “You can not win the Silver Buckle in the same category two years in a row.”

 

 

 

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Posted : 13/02/2020 8:18 pm
Birdie Cage
(@birdie-cage)

@dustyeagle

To clarify:  the 4 shooters you reference as "2018 Silver Winners" actually won their category in 2018 but had no qualified competition so they did not actually get the big silver buckle.  Those shooters got the Top Five buckles.  Hence, for 2019 they were eligible to get the big silver buckle because they won their category again but now had qualified competition = silver buckle.

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Posted : 14/02/2020 10:33 am
KennyReds
(@kennyreds)
Admin

Seems to me that if you really, really want to win a $100 buckle, you would choose your category carefully. If you choose to shoot in a category by yourself and you want to distinguish yourself by winning a competition, that ain't the way to do it.

SASS #83266

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Posted : 16/02/2020 3:53 pm
Windy City Red
(@windy-city-red)

I agree in part with everyone and certainly disagree with everyone.  This is getting way too complicated.  Who started this hornets nest and why?  WHY?

To expect there to be multiple same shooters in each and every  category for 7 matches is unreasonable.

To NOT have the members vote on this item is unreasonable.

To believe that the club won't lose shooters if you cancel  SFTS is a pipe dream.

As to single shooters in a category, I again believe that it's IMPOSSIBLE to tell how many are in a category until after the March match is over.

Therefore, sometimes your the fly n sometimes you're the windshield, so every once in a while the God's smile on you.  If you come to 9 matches in the heat, the cold and the rain, and you're the only one there in your category-you've earned  a damn buckle.

As to ties, it's can be quite simple.... if there's a tie at the end of December, have a 1 stage shoot off.  If one of the shooters is not there, they lose.

If there is a tie with 4 or 5 wins among 2  shooters take each shooters best time for that number of matches , not necessarily shot head to head, and lowest time wins.  Wow , what a concept.  That way if 1 member shoots 7 matches and 1 were to shoot 9 matches and they tie for 5 wins, their fastest time for 5 matches wins. Actually pretty simple eh?

Due to the obvious lack of visitors to the forum, so far there is only 7-8 of us and that includes Kenny, Birdie and Lou, if a vote is required, the membership should be given notice that there is going to be a vote for several months and then have a paper ballot vote at a match.  I volunteer to count the votes with anyone else.  

 

If you wanna call me for my opinion please dial "Quincy 55-55".

Thanks Windy

 

 

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Posted : 16/02/2020 11:02 pm
KennyReds
(@kennyreds)
Admin

I started this forum with the express purpose of getting the membership involved in the decision making process for the club. It seems that only 8 of us are so interested. So far, only about 30 people have signed up for the forum and not all those are members. I suppose that the board should come up with new, clarified rules for SFTS and be done with it.

SASS #83266

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Posted : 19/02/2020 3:20 pm
DustyEagle
(@dustyeagle)
Posted by: @kennyreds

I started this forum with the express purpose of getting the membership involved in the decision making process for the club. It seems that only 8 of us are so interested. So far, only about 30 people have signed up for the forum and not all those are members. I suppose that the board should come up with new, clarified rules for SFTS and be done with it.

May I suggest that an email be sent out to all members to let everyone know about the forum and ask that they review this subject.     

How many members do we have?

 

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Posted : 19/02/2020 3:29 pm
DustyEagle
(@dustyeagle)

So can anyone answer the question as to how many members has ACSA had over the last few years?

 

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Posted : 03/03/2020 4:36 pm
Deadeye Al
(@deadeye-al)

@birdie-cage

If SFTS is done away, for me it would mean that I would shoot it whenever I feel like, not participating when it hot or raining and of course

would not want to pay the yearly dues. SFTS makes you want to participate to shoot all the matches, it gives you an incentive to be there.

 

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Posted : 04/03/2020 9:25 am
Birdie Cage
(@birdie-cage)

Here's an idea for you folks to think about - please share this with your other ACSA friends and let me know what you think either via email or at the match next week.  I am putting a "suggestion box" at registration where you can jot down your thoughts on this pro or con and I will review them and share consensus at the sacred Chip Ceremony....... 🤠 

  1. Annual dues must be paid by end of January (either at match or by mail to Secretary).
  2. The Category you shoot in March is your 'declared' category for the year.
  3. You must shoot 6 matches in the year --  in your declared category --  to qualify.
  4. Matches cancelled due to weather or other natural disaster will not count.   The total qualifying matches will decrease by 1 for each cancellation.
  5. There must be at least 1 member shooting in your category in at least 2 matches.   Those matches do not need to be the same.
  6. Ties will be settled after the December match by a simple Best 2 out of 3 Coin Toss at the Chip Ceremony.

The new buckle design should be smaller or more practical for wearing.  3" x 4" instead of the 3.5" x 6" of the past. 

Thus, more qualified members will get buckles and the overall cost will be less than in the past.

If joining ACSA and shooting here is contingent upon the buckle (and ONLY said buckle) then it will be a benefit of club membership and not really a competition.    If this would bring fun back to our club then I would recommend we move in that direction.

Let's put this issue to rest and get on with having fun.

Respectfully,   

Birdie Cage

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Posted : 04/03/2020 12:50 pm
KennyReds
(@kennyreds)
Admin

@birdie-cage

What is the rational for a formal "Declaration" and the rational for March as a deadline? Your category is the category you put on the match application. Shoot six matches in the same category and you qualify for SFTS in that Category. Make it simpler than that. Suppose you don't shoot the March match - health, personal business, whatever - you are out of SFTS for the year?

SASS #83266

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Posted : 04/03/2020 1:40 pm
Birdie Cage
(@birdie-cage)

@kennyreds

Good point.  I believe the March deadline has historical precedence.  March is the month I was told when I got here as a 'rule' but it can certainly be altered to January or what ever is a shooter's first match of the year.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/03/2020 2:47 pm
ColtLaredo
(@coltlaredo)

Last year was my first as a member shooting for the silver. I came to as many matches as possible so I could win my category.

However, there was no other club member competing with me. It takes the fun out of what the program is about.

I can't move up in my category due to my age.

So why not just collapse the senior and silver seniors into the lowest category where ever possible. Less buckles to purchase and creates more competition among the club members.

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Posted : 04/03/2020 5:21 pm
olnumber4
(@olnumber4)

I have no idea why there is so much concern.  It was/IS a great idea.

Some folks can't/don't get too far from home.  In SASS a "buckle" is the badge of accomplishment.

For those who have no other way to achieve that accomplishment or to accent their growth, the SFTS represents a step towards a level of achievement.

Be that achievement a global trophy or a token/chip of accomplishment or  a REALLY nice Buckle to accent a year of competition let each appreciate their effort.

But, yes, it must represent some level of competition between friends, competitors and same like shooters.

 

I like the basic rule set by Red:   minimum of 6 shoots against someone  in the same category and declare your category up front by March and shoot it all the way through each match you enter.What if no one else shoots your category,   well make the top "X%" and you still get a buckle.... or   whatever.

Why penalize those who shoot in "exotic" categories????  Why penalize a top shooter for their commitment to it!!??

I think the SFTS is a unique quality of  ACSA and adds a dimension of recognition I have not seen in more then 16 other clubs I have been associated with.

Good luck with a decision.  I look forward to your solution.

 

Ol'  #4

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Posted : 04/03/2020 8:04 pm
lonespurjake
(@lonespurjake)

I agree with Kenny.  Drop the "March is your category for the year" and as long as a shooter shoots 6 matches in one category with at least another or other shooters in that category he qualifies for the Silver Buckle.  Eliminates the problem.  

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Posted : 06/03/2020 11:44 am

I'm with Kenny Reds on this one, drop the March declaration requirement, just shoot 6 matches in a specific category and beat another member in that category that has shot in that category twice. 

I like it,

TB

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Posted : 09/03/2020 2:02 pm
lonespurjake
(@lonespurjake)

Could it be more simple than that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Oh I know, let's keep analizing this like dumbass Democrats would do. 

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Posted : 10/03/2020 6:40 pm
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